Selim Birsel worked and lived in France for a long time. Actually he is teaching and " sharing his experiences with the visual arts students at the Bilkent University " he says. Beral Madra spoke with the artist.

Beral Madra: Ten years ago you came from France and we worked together for the second Istanbul Biennale. At that time, I was struggling to be accepted as a curator. You were aware of this problem being a part of the system in France. After ten years, it is now finally accepted as a profession. However, I still believe that the relationship between the artist and the curator is not as clear as I would like it to be. What is your opinion on this?

Selim Birsel: In Turkey contemporary artists can be counted on your ten fingers. There are very few curators apart from the artists themselves.

BM: Do you think I am qualified to be a curator?

SB: Yes. It happens that the artists themselves also organise their own exhibitions. As an example, the AB exhibitions were organised by the initiative of a group of avant-garde artists. I have organised exhibitions, too. But, to organise an exhibition and at the same time to participate to that exhibition as an artist can be a very tiring experience. It is not an easy task to establish the relations, to prepare the printed matter, to put the plans of the project into practice, to find the funds, to solve the problems of space. Finding the screwdriver and providing the hammers are but a few examples of the small details that encroach upon a curator. Foreign participants need special care, as they are unaware of the particularities of our country. The artist needs to be free of such responsibilities in order to be able to concentrate on his exhibit. For this reason, a specialist is needed. Answering the questions of the visitors, resolving the differences of their opinions, defending the theories put forward by the artist should be the job of the curator. The artist should step back after setting up his exhibit.

BM: That is the most important aspect of the job. The curator is the person who conveys the message of the artist to the outside world. She or he finds the shared or the opposing statements in joint exhibitions.

SB: The Biennales are the most joined of all the exhibitions. In general, the idea is that everyone should be responsible for himself. The selector for the Biennale has approximately one hour to establish contact with the artist and to understand his work. Most of the time they do not even get a chance to meet personally. Curators should try to organise exhibitions on a smaller scale. I observed these problems in the Biennales that I participated to. Maybe the era of Biennales is ending. I believe that Turkey is not rich enough to host Biennales. Instead of having a giant exhibition every two years, smaller scale exhibitions where a race against time is not the issue, but better planning is, where the work is chosen more meticulously in order to create an atmosphere of discussion as to9 the opposing or shared ideas of the works exposed seems to me would be more profitable for us.

BM: I agree with you that in the Biennales the curators and the artists have differences in their relations with each other. I also believe that in Turkey the organisation of Biennales should be questioned. At the beginning I did not realise it would come to this finally. The first two Biennales beginning. Their mission was to participate to the international artistic activities, to draw the attention of important artists and to enliven The local milieu. To a certain degree this was achieved. I expected Istanbul to create her own Biennale style but this did not happen for the simple reason that the world system is too powerful and it imposes its own rules. In this context the particularity of a Biennale should have been not to integrate to the system but to establish an opposing statement. Are we capable of doing that, do we have the potential to contribute to it our way, is it possible?

SB: The Biennales are art Olympiads but their breaths are getting shorter each day, at least in Europe. People are looking for new alternatives. Lately the new Korea, Sydney and Johannesbourg Biennales have come up with new propositions and have earned the approval of the crowds. Istanbul comes in their wake At the same time it is impossible not to see the stamp of a European based cultural colonisation. This becomes more evident as the countries advance in their preparations.

BM: As a result, these countries, when the time comes, try to integrate into the U.S.A. or European centred system. You are involved in art education since some time; maybe you can answer my question. Do we have the potential to escape the system? I mean, Anstead of becoming a part of it, do we have the potential to contribute to it?

SB: Yes we have. Yes it is possible but very difficult because it is unacceptable.

BM: By whom, by the general milieu?

SB: Yes by the general milieu and also because people actually do not want to change. I do not believe that the artists themselves are ready for this. We discussed the question with you once before. When you visited Zekiye Sarikartal's exhibition in Ankara, you said, "As I visited the show I saw at the that the artist had put the final point to her statement." There is a statement imposed. There is no escape neither visually nor artistically. I believe the visitor should enter an exhibition through an open door, create his or her own visual and mental mechanism, feel good about it, and enrich himself. This is a particularity of our culture. Bela Bartok said," your melodies are wonderful, but why everyone is playing the same music" This is also valid for the plastic arts. Polyphony depends on the dialogue between the artist and the spectator. In Turkey this is valid for painting. As a result of the post-modern evolution miniature art loses its metaphoric particularities and replaces writing.

BM: Painting should create what kind of a metaphor in order not to be writing?

SB: There is plastic language. Maybe the question should be posed otherwise. Which paintings address to one in the plastic language? Jackson Pollacks, Robert Ryman's paintings address to us in the painting language. The important is not what you paint, says Ryman but why and how you paint. One comes nearer this aim in monochrome painting. I like monochrome painting, too. I asked myself why I did not paint figures. I looked up the word ' paint' in the dictionary and came up with 'whitewashing' the walls. One does not need figures in painting. The important thing is colour and texture. Colour will provide the light and from this duality, painting will be created.

BM: TThere is no monochrome painting in Turkey and yet God is abstract There is however descriptive figurative painting. Isn't that interesting?

SB: This is the evolution of miniature painting.

"SPICE VANE", 1990.
" LABORATORY " Russian Museum, St Petersburg. (I.H.E.A.P. Pontus Hulten)

BM: And folk painting

SB: In my opinion it is related to folk tales and to public storytelling, mimics. Even though painting and figures are absent from our culture and religion there is a need for storytelling. This, in abstract images, is apparent in kilims and textiles in a decorative form. On the other hand, miniatures are more inclined to storytelling. When you open a newspaper you are bombarded with a culture where the subtitles under the photographs have the priority.

BM: Isn't it interesting to observe the number of photographs in the newspapers? Advertisements with huge colour photos are also prominent. Whereas in Europe and in the US they are more modest, usually in black and white or drawn by hand. Maybe in our country it is a reaction to the figureless of our art. In a way maybe we want to use this freedom to the limit, because in the past the human figure was hidden in books and only appeared in folk painting. Maybe that is why collage is also accepted for it brings several images together.

SB: Collage is very close to Turkish life. I like to work in collage, too. One has to learn to observe simple life. The position of the cars in traffic is one example. Say, two bands have marked the road. Before the traffic lights those two bands almost always become four. When you stop your car in front of the red light you naturally leave some space in front of you. Almost always a taxi or a shared taxi comes up to fill that space. Closer the better. As if to say, let's not leave any empty space.

BM: Is this reflected in painting?

SB: Yes. Order Turkish coffee, it comes filled to the brim. The server is afraid to spill it, I always spill it. There is never any lip space. It is the same with the tea. You put in the sugar and it overflows.

BM: It is only natural that these particular public habits reflect on art. Dou we find the same particularities reflected on installations?

SB: Yes we do. The Turkish artist needs to include his culture in his art, needs to express himself his way. In spite of living abroad for so many years, this is apparent in Sarkis. This is also apparent in Fusun Onur who lives here. Of my generation in Hale Tenger. I am naming these artists because I like their work. I find an affinity with their way of thinking and mine. I can not mention the names of artists whose ideas I do not share. However this can be perilous. Some artists who wish to integrate the particular characteristics of their country in their work may fall into the trap of folklore. There is a very thin line there. In the "Magicien de la Terre" exhibition in Paris, a potter figured .in an exhibit. Is he also an artist? Can we accept this? As we have discussed previously, do we need to include everything in an installation? Do we have to show every trick? Aren't simulations, secrets better?

BM: I believe that in a work of art an off the way, a sort of distorted, off the normal element is necessary.

SB: This element, we can explain in another way: When a spectator looks at a work, he should say, there is here something that bothers me. A feeling like a needle has pierced his skin and a pustule has developed…He himself should find the remedy to heal this wound. The remedy should not be offered to him by someone else.

BM: You mean, if a question is asked, the answer should not be Obvious.

SB: Not for me, no.

BM: Yes, there is a tendency to present the answer along with the question. The label, the end, is there. The contrary would be more exciting. That is the easy way for the public to find the solution.

SB: It is not easy for an art philosopher to change his mind. You think it would be more exciting if the label, the end, is not present but the artist, when he puts the label, the end, is more easily understood in the country though he may not be so well received abroad. Abroad, they may not understand why he did It that way. The reason why he presented his exhibit in a certain way may not be very well perceived neither in the country nor abroad without the label.

BM: This has to do with our cultural presentation. We give more importance to political, economic and tourist propaganda. We must add culture to this list somehow. I believe this is directly related to the establishment of a cultural industry in Turkey. What kind of art? The line there is still not clear, thanks to the media. There was a panel on a private TV channel lately on "Who is an artist" The level was low but it sort of permitted the artists who are not artists to realise their limitations. Another aspect was that the mass culture wanted to prevail. In Turkey a lot is invested in culture but investment in mass culture is pronounced in billions. In spite of this victory, the mass culture is suddenly aware that it does not represent all spheres of art. How do you think an artist should react to the pressure of mass culture?

"KURSUN UYKUSU" (LEAD SLEEP)
"GAR"
Ankara Railway Station, Ankara, 1995
(artist project with Claude Leon, Vahap Avsar) -c-

SB: My answer to that is to exhibit. I am particularly thinking of the Train Station Exhibition in Ankara. There, the right reaction came from the lowest level of the masses. The early retirement questions were being debated in the parliament. An old lady, looking at my exhibit, "The deep (lead) sleep" and at the metaphoric bodies lying on the floor said, "This then is what retirement in the grave means."

BM: She established a direct relationship with her life.

SB:I like my exhibitions to be on that line. The station exhibition was successful from this point of view. It was a part of a joint exhibition on the theme, "Art and Taboos" And created a taboo incident. I believe that it will remain in the memories of all the people who frequented the place at that time. The exhibition will be remembered because of the reaction it received. The drunkard who walks the premises is the person who best understood the telescopic mirror exhibit of Claude Leon, I think. "That is how they look at us, observe us, control us, then," he said. However, the art lovers who came to the opening in their elegant clothes were uncomfortable. Either they were entering the station for the first time in their lives or they felt that a station was not the right place for an exhibition. I believe that this duality is necessary.

BM: You mean, you believe that art should be exhibited in public places?

SB: In the station, people who don't know what a gallery is, or are reluctant to enter a galley because they think it is a high and mighty place, suddenly came face to face with art or maybe not art but with something that made them ask themselves "What is this?" If we repeat these sort of activities, may be we can progress. In Turkey the socio-political milieu is such that, when he or she finds the opportunity, the artist likes to provoke-though sometimes it may be dangerous. What happened to the station exhibition in Ankara may happen anywhere. The statues were being removed from public places at that time.

BM: My opinion is that exhibiting art in public places in Istanbul may draw different reactions. The Ankara train station is a historical public place. It was risky for you to choose that particular place. It also is a transit place for the people. However, you have not answered my question: Artists like you run the risk of not being accepted. Millions of people have expressed this opinion on TV. How should one react to it? Should one ignore it or fight it? You are a teacher, are you considering how your students would react in such a situation?

SB: I can not say exactly; but this problem will be resolved only by creating art, I believe. I shall create art; they will create art, etc. Art for me is a constant struggle. First of all, I struggle with myself, and then I struggle with the media to show them that I am struggling with myself

BM: Do their education prepares the artists for a life of struggle?

SB: As far as I can perceive, in the art departments of the universities the students are taught to produce art for the art market. I, myself, like to believe that I prepare my students for such an eventuality. In my Master classes we tend to go through phases such as, "how to be a shark" "how to resist" "how not to compensate". This philosophy of life we discuss depending on the character of the particular person. I don't know if such resistance courses are available at other schools. When they graduate, the students are faced with a dilemma. There was a boy at the fourth Istanbul Biennale who drew Tin Tin pictures. He was a superstar then. Where is he now? He withdrew from this milieu. I n my opinion, these people are like paper tissues. "Oh, how delightful" you take the tissue from a pack, you sniff the menthol odour, then you blow your nose on it and you discard it. The important thing is to be a cloth handkerchief. You wash it, you iron it and you use it again. I still use my grandfather's handkerchiefs.

BM: That boy chose the field of publicity. Publicity is constantly trying to step into the field of art-or, more exactly trying to steal the field. When I look at the billboards, I can easily perceive that the language of contemporary art is clearly stolen. The texts, the slogans, the images-they are quotations. Many artists, from Andy Warhol on, have been aware of this and fought against this state of the media. How, do you think, younger generation of artists will escape this influence? When I visit young artists' exhibitions I often ask myself "Is this advertisement, or art?"

SB: One should try to reach the fundament of the question. Why do the young artists prefer almost always the installation form? In the exhibits of the next generation photography and video will dominate. In the fourth biennale installations were predominant. Then there came an explosion. Artists the age of my father who have been painting for years, began to do installations. Hey, wait a moment … what is an installation? Have you asked yourself the question? Artists who visit the biennales, the Documentas, the Manifestas think this is the key to becoming part of the international scene and believe that they have found the easy solution.

BM: Instead of using art as the metaphor of a specific language, they wish to use it as a means to be personally recognised.

SB: For me this is not art

BM: In order for it to be art, other dimensions are needed. For me, one of these dimensions is developing a world philosophy. What reflects on the work of art is the personal philosophy developed after this world philosophy.

SB: When we consider how many of these young artists and not so young artists have heard of Kurt Schwitter's Merzbau; El Lyssitzky's Proun; Daniel Buren's "in situ" concept… How many of them know why Malevitch drew only one black square?

BM: Or, how many of them know how neon writing was initiated…

SB: Or how many of them asked themselves Constantin Brancusi's "pedestal" question…

"5 CANONICAL ELEMENTS"
"SANAT, TEXNH"
Painting and Sculpture Museum, Istanbul 1992
(Beral Madra)

BM: You mean to say that the artist should study the 20th century art in depth; without that knowledge. Without knowing the reason why a certain work of art was created, it does not work solely with visual memory.

SB: How, why certain works of art were created? What were the social or political circumstances of the time? These should be studied. Otherwise is the only a paper handkerchief.

BM: At the end of the 20th century we are now discussing the dimensions of a work of art. How did your art evolve from the time that you started to the present day?

SB:I believe I should answer this question by describing my personal art voyage. I needed approximately ten years for my work to become "a work." I was invited to participate to the "10 artists, 10 works" exhibition in AKM. This was to be my first exhibition in Turkey but I did not have the means to pay the travel expenses. For this reason I described my work and explained how it should be set up to the people who were organising the exhibition. I worked on the space allotted to me on paper and sent my work in.
During the second Istanbul Biennale, I assisted Anne and Patrick Poirier. As I was shopping for them in Istanbul, I was confronted with a lot of spice and smells. I started studying spice and the different smells. This research produced "Spice van" in the St Petersbourg museum in Russia in 1990. We were invited to Russia for one month. I had studied the historical background but I had not yet decided on my exhibit. Spice for meant different smells, breathing, space, space covered, travelling… I went to Russia with six kilos of spice. The Russians do not use spice in their cooking. I went to Russia hoping to sample and taste the Russian cooking, but I was confronted with poverty. Nothing remained of the famous Russian cooking. Smells permeate space. The ephemeral state of space contrasts with the hardness of steel; but oxidation is universal. During the exhibition visitors walked on spice and the smell of spice filled the other rooms of the exhibit hall. One has to offer. When offered people know how to receive.
I stopped working with spice after this exhibit for my message was misunderstood. Giving a visual body to smell as a Turkish artist I was accused of falling into the trap of folklore. I changed my direction. I became involved with the concepts of visible-invisible-subterfuge. This was to be my black and white phase, clearer and sharper in message. Person to person war images, and subterfuges were my preoccupations. For a long time, I was involved with the F-117, a phantom warplane. As a result of these preoccupations, I created my exhibits such as "Visible, invisible" and "The shadow of…" In the 1990's I became interested with Suprematism, which means, super material, beyond material. I used graphite and created works, which reflected the duality of hard and soft; black and white.
In 1992 in the third Istanbul biennale the theme proposed was Megalopol. I created Subversion for this exhibition. Megalopol for me is a city without boundaries. I wrapped the four existing columns of the exhibit hall with cotton fibber cloth and came up with a giant cube. Black graphite painted stovepipes pierced this cube, like binoculars and observed the other works in the exhibition hall, but no one could see the inside of the cube. In spite of its size, few people noticed this exhibit, I suppose because of its white colour.

BM: The last work of the Black and White phase was in the Biennale in Feshane, wasn't it?

SB: Yes. Then suddenly appears grey.

BM: Why did you decide to return to Turkey definitely?

SB: I was teaching in France to earn my living. Between classes I worked in factories and as a guide in the museum. None of this was enough to keep me over the water financially. On the other hand, I had accumulated a lot of experience. I wanted to share this experience and knowledge with the Turkish students in Turkey. I wanted my base to be in Turkey with access to abroad from there. I decided to return home. Bilkent University invited me as an instructor. I was qualified professionally I spoke several languages. I was a teacher. However, can one teach art? I don't know.

BM: You can teach what you know.

SB: That is what I am doing now.

BM: What are you working on actually?

"DÜSÜK AY" (THE FOLLEN MOON)
Le Monde de L' Art Galerie
(with I.Antic, U. Kessl, D.Parlac, L.Sh.Naderi)
Paris 1996

SB:The atmosphere of the place a person lives in affects that person and consequently that person's work. I rediscovered my country after my return. The smells, the materials, the mentality of the people. After an international struggle on a large scale my angle became smaller. I started observing the world from a micro point of view. The child asks, " Mother, what shall we eat tonight?" The mother answers, "There is nothing to eat tonight." The tablecloth becomes the house, the house is of paper, without a door, colour of ash, the air is heavy-these directed me to a series of paper graphite works. The last of these paper graphite works is the " heavy sleep" exhibit in the Ankara station. Then something strange happened, I sort of lost my bearings. I became very idle and started walking around aimlessly. I am walking around, I am idle, my feet are heavy, they lift up the dust, I stop, I look around, I observe, I watch, I question myself, I stop, I pick up something from the ground, I put that in my pocket, I take notes, I hear, I listen, I breathe…These walks led to works such as "From the dust of our homes, to the homes of our dust", "Rest", "Blood Circulation", "To be Attached to the life", "Changing". These took longer to create. Each had its own life span. For a long time I had been looking for a jacket…

BM: What for?

SB: To use in one of my exhibits. Somebody else was looking at the jacket I liked. This jacket and these pants should be mine, I thought. The person who had been considering buying them changed his mind and left. I stepped in and touched them; "how much?" I asked the vendor. The man who had changed his mind had bargained for them. The vendor sold them to me at even a cheaper price. They were mine at last. The same story repeated itself for a cupboard. I did not have the time to go and buy it for a long time. Months passed, but as if it had waited for me, it became mine at the end.

BM: Are you trying to say that there is a mystical link between you and these consumer goods?

SB: I don't think it is a mystical link, I think it has to do with social life and our forgetfulness in the historical sense.
These objects are not pretty to look at. In the context of an exhibit, they emanate sour and bitter tastes. But they are real objects and they confirm a reality lived and experienced. It may sound naive, but the artist should believe in the objects that he is working with. -as if they are living entities. Maybe that is the mystical aspect. Maybe I can explain this better by recounting how my exhibit, "From the dust of our house to the houses of our dust" was realised. I t started by my going to peoples' homes and exchanging empty vacuum cleaner dust bags with full ones. When I opened these bags full of house dust I had the impression of invading people's private lives and glimpsing the particular colour of that particular home. I arranged this dust on the floor in the form of a house. In a way, I brought these people together under a collective roof in an organic way. Then I hung the empty dust bags on the wall with people's names on them. For me they represented bodiless spirits or bodies deprived of spirits.

BM: For me that is one of the great changes of the turn of the century. Everyone has started to write his or her own personal history. I am beginning to ask myself: What purpose do these objects brought together in installations serve? Why are they always everywhere? The answer is, because now is the era when the objects tend to disappear in favour of the make believe. When installations began, people had no idea of the conceptual-only a glimpse that it might be possible; that there might be an abstract reality at the end. Whatever the reason, art is created in a pessimistic atmosphere and these objects are there for it to prevail and to re-write history; whereas another art form is developing in the Internet, in the video and in the digital Photography

SB: In this polarity maybe I am old fashioned.

BM: Let us not call it old fashioned because one day the conceptual will also outlive its day.

SB: Then I can start walking around again.

BM: How did you become interested in the theatre, in stage design?

SB: The artist today does not solely work in his atelier. One has to expand, in order to enrich oneself; one has to exchange views with other artists working on different fields. That is why I became interested in the theatre. We collaborated with Claude Leon on exhibition organising and the same idea prevailed. We organised an exhibition called "come-go" which included plastic arts, theatre, and music. Yes, one has to create a sort of a tide event. It is better to play the guitar using all of the six strings than using only one string, isn't it? This was the motivating idea for me as it was for the people that I worked with in the theatre, I am sure. Otherwise we wouldn't have been able to work together.

BM: What is your future projects?

SB: I have some projects, even prospects, but I would not like to disclose them prematurely. Art is a bumpy road. There might be pleasant or unpleasant surprises on the way I prefer to be prudent on my declarations. As I said before, work recalls work and I am in constant movement, but where and how…I like to be able to control this process. I like the artist to be the person to say the last word; after all with each exhibit he is offering a part of himself.